homemade battery info... [Archive]

brian55127

12-15-2007, 03:39 PM

Nice picture. :) I got my Pleo this Thursday and and since I am an avid Asimov fan, I came up with the name PleoDreams as a reference to "Robot Dreams" a group of shorts that Asimov wrote awhile ago.

-Nikropht

Oh cool, that's what the movie I, Robot was based after right? It is strange, because the collection of stories entitled "Robot Dreams" does not even have "I, Robot" in it, but the movie "I, Robot" with Will Smith seems to follow the plot most closely associated with the title story in Asimov's collection "Robot Dreams..." :confused:

Balobo

12-16-2007, 07:20 AM

Is Pleo's battery charger compatible with other NiHM batteries?

PleoWorldHostCami

12-16-2007, 09:01 AM

Is Pleo's battery charger compatible with other NiHM batteries?

No, you can only use UGOBE approved batteries in your Pleo.

Balobo

12-16-2007, 05:07 PM

So then how long will it take to charge a UGOBE approved battery in Pleo, and how long does it last?

PleoWorldHostCami

12-16-2007, 06:08 PM

So then how long will it take to charge a UGOBE approved battery in Pleo, and how long does it last?

The batteries are not charged in Pleo they are charged in the charger.

Charging times should average between 3 - 4 hours.

Pleo should last approximately 1 hour on a charge. However, I've seen reports in the community that say they are getting up to 90 minutes on 1 charge.

sarusani

12-17-2007, 07:28 AM

The batteries are not charged in Pleo they are charged in the charger.

Charging times should average between 3 - 4 hours.

Pleo should last approximately 1 hour on a charge. However, I've seen reports in the community that say they are getting up to 90 minutes on 1 charge.

The time pleo last on one charge depends on how much he walk and moves... if you pet him all the time and he stands still it will last longer, if he is bored and walks around all the time he will run out of energy quicker... Just like any other pet :) :)

dschenekl

12-18-2007, 04:54 PM

I just got a reply after a bunch of posts and e-mails etc concerning when the extra batteries will be available.

According to Ugobe from the e-mail I received today extra batteries will not be available until Spring of 2008.

I asked a couple of other questions that went along with this and they choose not to answer them.

I am sorry, as much as I like Pleo I find this pretty unacceptable.

Also, by this time I am wondering if the present battery will still hold charges like it does now and if the battery breaks or fails to recharge due to normal use will they replace it or will you be stuck waiting.

I said all along they should have stuck to some type of common rechargeable battery pack.

I do not buy the warrantee answer either that I saw posted by someone on the Internet in that Ugobe could not monitor or regulate the product because of people using other batteries by other manufactures. They could have just gone to rechargeable AA cell types worst case.

This makes no sense whatsoever. What were they thinking?

PleofromVirginia

12-18-2007, 06:14 PM

Thank you for the update dschenekl.

I would like to see options (lithium, etc.) offered for replacement/additional batteries.

The biggest problem with the charging to play time ratio is one can lose interest quickly. Maybe not such a problem for Logan's Runners, but it will drive kids (or most likely their parents) nuts to play for an hour and wait four hours to play again. I see Pleo sitting on a shelf just looking "pretty".

Siren

12-18-2007, 07:02 PM

Hopefully Ugobe sells the extra batteries at an affordable and low price. Who wants to spend $350 on a toy that only lasts one hour on a charge and then spend another $50+ for another battery so you get 2 hours play.

gie

12-20-2007, 06:48 PM

Since the battery was 2200 mah and 6 cells, I took the jump as a pleo owners and charged an empty pleo pack with my hobby grade charger. I clipped a connector to the top negative and positive side and plugged it into my black widow ni-mh charger. At 2 amps, the battery charged in about an hour and 15 mins. I have had a little over an hour with my Pleo with no problems or difference in battery performance other than charge time.

Now I know it may be against UGOBE regulations for charging my battery other than the pleo charger, but I am just posting my findings. On behalf of my experience, since I have various remote control toys with 7.2v AA packs and charge them with my quick charger, I saw no problem and see no problem charging this way. So far i've done 3 cycles like this with no problems and an hour and 15 is alot shorter than 4 hours(not to mention having the false peak problems with the stock pleo charger). Again, just posting my findings! Not encouraging charging the pleo pack with anything other than the pleo charger. Thought it might be an interesting post.

kchamster

12-20-2007, 06:52 PM

ooooooooooo that's cooooooooooooool!!

PleoPrincess78

12-20-2007, 08:48 PM

Very interesting. I hope UGOBE can develop a faster-charging battery pack for its future improvements.

MyCool

12-21-2007, 04:22 AM

Good info thanks for sharing. Did the battery get hot, warm when charging or just normal?

whiteknight

12-21-2007, 04:48 AM

I had posted the same idea in the battery thread a few days ago, I never tried it because I did not find a way to get a good connection to the battery without cutting the wires, I am glad some one did it, I would not worry about the battery being charged this way at all because the hobby chargers are designed for this just these type of packs, I am going to try my Piranha Peak Power Charger on it. I think in time I may just take the Pleo charging base apart and cut the wires inside so I can tie into that. It would give the battery a better charge than anything Ugobe can come up with.

cmadmacs

12-21-2007, 08:53 AM

Remember it will void the warranty. But you are right. I have several chargers for rc.

dotyj

12-21-2007, 06:25 PM

I'd been into R/C hobbies since the mid 80s and I have a lot of quick chargers for a lot of different styles of batteries.

Still I would never use a quick charger on the Pleo battery pack since I only have the one pack. Hobby quick chargers are fantastic for R/C toys but they can shorten battery life. On rare occasion I've seen battery packs destroyed by quick charging them.

Of course I'm not telling anyone who knows the risks not to quick charge a Pleo battery pack, but I do think that people should know there is a risk in doing so.

cmadmacs

12-22-2007, 02:41 AM

dotyj that is a very good point.

Siren

12-22-2007, 07:30 PM

Maybe take the risk when you know you can buy a new battery, asap. Right now, we have to wait till sometime in 2008 for extra/replacement batteries.

ZED

12-23-2007, 11:51 PM

its just a 6 cell aa style ni mh... I was already thinking of trying to assemble a home made pack. Looks easy enough. Just some jumpers solder and shrink wrap. could even bump up the ma to 3000 or so .. charge it on my novak charger... Build a back pack and run straight race cells.. ... eh.. might melt something.. probably stick to factory amperage. I do have some 2100 ma cells around eh.. not worth frying the poor guy.

If nothing else.. replacing the bad cells in a factory pack could be accomplished. (and potentially lucrative in the upcoming months) HMMM.. after-market battery packs.... hmmmm. rarely does the simple ability to solder batteries turn into $$$...

Itll definitely be attempted before purchasing {or waiting on} a new battery pack.

ZED

12-24-2007, 12:08 AM

.. SO.. this is just a 7.2v 2200mah battery... simple 6 cell aa form battery. But I have one question...
what's the third metal contact for? Have an obvious + and - labeled but I am unfamiliar with what the meaning of the third contact is on many of these new battery packs is. Is it charger function related? If so.. no big deal.. my ionic-D doesn't give a crap. latch us simple enough

Be nice to rig up some spares. Not worry about frying my pleo pack on the quick charger..

thanks...

ZED

12-24-2007, 12:21 AM

I see.. It IS (supposedly) for a thermister... next question.. are these easily available? do I need it ya think?
Does PLEO need it?
Any electro smart folk out there that would know what kind I would need. What its output signal needs to look like?.. where to get one... other than disassembling old 3 prong battery packs around the house maybe?

dotyj

12-24-2007, 10:17 AM

If third party higher amperage packs become available after my warranty period has expired, I might be willing to try them as long as the price stays competitive.

Still, considering how long my pack currently runs on a charge, I'm wondering if I'd even buy a second stock pack. I'm actually really happy with my charge and run times.

pleohacker

12-24-2007, 05:14 PM

The Third pin is a thermistor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermistor
It is connected between the (-) negative pad and the extra pad.

Just off the charger the pack reads 8.272 volts at 45 degrees C. At this temperature the thermistor reads about 4.5 K (with the resistance increasing as it cools) At 35C it is about 6.3K

This would make it 10K (at 25C) with a 3900K B-Constant, or a part like a Murata NCP21XV103J03RA

The 2200 MAH cells are pretty good for OEM, but there are better one out there. The highest I've seen in a NiMh is 2900. This should be a clean upgrade, but any swap like this will void your warranty and all that other "may harm your stuff" stuff. So I did not tell you to do anything like this.

pleohacker

12-24-2007, 05:31 PM

The charger is the weakest part of the system so far. Mine does not engage well, the pack has to be inserted a few times before it starts up.

The cells must be running pretty hard to get as hot as they do. For a 2200mah pack to die in one hour, you have to be drawing around 2 amps average. Since I'm guessing the motors are on around 50% of the time, that would lead to peak currents in the 4 to 5 amp range, higher if the legs are tangled or pinned. Mine only ran for 34 mins doing the birth / wake up sequence. That was on the first cycle of the batteries and they might get better after a few cycles.

I have a high end smart fast charger.
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/maha_c777.html
I'll try this with the pleo pack and report the results.

ZED

12-25-2007, 12:10 AM

hmm interesting that particular thermistor you mention is extremely cheap... I am unfamiliar with their composition.. but obviously they are just a semi-conductive material. a quick EBAY search found tons of 10k thermistors.
YEa.. yea... yea.. I got your "warranty" right here....

No one would worry about using nicads or nimh rechargeable in their cd player.. but that would void your discman's warranty.
It isnt rocket science.. just some simple OHMs law

OK.. so it probably would work without a thermistor. Just need to make sure it stays cool... which shouldn't be a problem. BUT.. with thermistors readily available .. why not.

OK... so.. battery pack would be... about 15 dollars.. plus any cobbling supplies to make it stay in the pleo beast. (popsicle stick or something and some tape or shrink wrap to hold the battery together). It'd also be quick chargeable.

Well.. there it is for any of you out there that want to try.

1 - 10 k thermistor..
6- 2200 or better AA nimh batteries (heck you COULD use alkalines.. but why?)
a few battery bars (or cobble bits) to soldier across the terminals.

SOldier the batteries together + to - so that the ending terminals wind up being in the same place as the OEM battery. Solder one end the 10k thermistor to the negative terminal and the other end to an insulated piece of metal to act as a terminal for the thermistor (the third terminal). Maybe solder some leads for your quick charger.. . Wrap it up and charge.

Figure out some way to get the battery to stay in the pleo.. I suggest a stick of some sort twisted into place under the battery just like pleo's OEM lock. A spacer to fill in the extra space .. a folded up piece of card stock would work.

Not fancy.. but well serviceable.

All these parts can be had at any RC hobby shop.. heck probably most would whip it up for you if you asked them.

of course.. these parts can replace your failed batteries in your OEM unit. Simply disassemble your stock unit and unsolder.. replace.. wrap up.

probably most people that would do this wouldn't need these crude instructions.. but maybe it'll inspire some people on the edge of helping themselves to get over the hurdle and take care of themselves.

pleohacker

12-25-2007, 07:47 AM

further study has let me to be very cautious about the issue. It seems that some of Pleo's napping is in response to the batteries getting hot. The load on these cells is high, and I would NOT assume that any random selection of changes would bring anything but problems. Here are the issues:

The cells need a very low internal resistance. Since the processors and the motors are running off the same power pack, a load induced voltage droop could easily reset one or more internal CPUs. NiCads would have the lowest internal resistance, but these cells do not have the total MAH of NiMh cells. Also NiCads have a very steep drop off at the end of charge and this could prevent the controlled shutdown that Pleo now does.

The peak loads are high and already lead to cell heating. The pack is insulated by being the core of the body and any heat is retained. LiPoly would be a really good fit except for the little problem of them exploding when they get hot. (have you seen the flaming laptop videos?) I don't think anyone wants a fire breathing dino.

This leaves us standard alkaline cells. These are higher voltage (1.5 per cell vs 1.2 per cell) but they are much lower in MAH than NiMh cells High power cells are around 1000mah, and with a higher internal resistance, it is unlikley that Pleo could run on primary cells without the processors resetting.

So the only real option is NiMh, just like they already use. The really "big" AA NiMh cells (2900) are $5 each, and would still need tested to see if they can handle the heat buildup without frying.

process with caution.

pleohacker

12-25-2007, 08:06 AM

The MAHA C777 charger did not push the Pleo pack very hard, it took three hours to get to the point where it gave up on an overtemp warning. This charger has it's own temp sensor and so it does not rely on the internal thermistor. This charger uses the internal resistance of the pack to determine a charging rate, so based on it's reaction, the Pleo charger is going as fast as it should with these cells.

I often see it end the charge on a overtemp, (watching for a quick temp increase is one way of finding the end of charge for a NiMh) but the Pleo pack was only at 7.7 volts when this happened. On the Pleo charger the end of charge is 8.3 volts.

A "brute force" charger would go faster, but I am concerned about the heat build up as is...

research continues...

Lu Bu

12-25-2007, 10:15 AM

Pleo's battery back in '06 can run up to 2 hrs and only take 2-3 hrs to fully charge.

ZED

12-25-2007, 12:54 PM

Yes.. Well the thermistor should help with the heat issues. It'll tell pleo to shut down. It turns out I don't have enough of any one mah rating of nimh AAs to proceed right now, but I now have 10k/25c thermal resistors and braided copper strap.

The question of heat is a large one. the battery does get warm.. not as hot as most of my batteries. But, like you said, its running motors and computer at the same time. Sudden drops in power due to multiple motor startup could dip the voltage and pleo could get stupid or shut off.

I think it will be safe to proceed using 2500mah or lower batteries. Higher rated batteries would likely last long enough to be a heat problem. Keeping them at the rated level should work fine. And again, the thermistor should tell pleo to shut down no matter what.

SO.. what i'm planning is the closest to 2200mah nimh batteries.

I'd be happy using my hobby charger, but with the uniqueness of the oem battery, I don't want to risk it at this time.

ZED

12-25-2007, 02:08 PM

Interesting. SO.. the OEM cells may be of lower quality? Would the quick hot temps fast depletion be an indication of higher internal resistance? Premium cells increase life decrease heat and charge time? It would seem that the 2200mah may not be an indication of a reasonable power supply but more a maximum heat.

I'm not too smart on it. do premium cells have a heat/resistance difference from a generic chinese cheapo? They seem to live longer and peak better in my experience.. I haven't tested for heat or charge time.

pleohacker

12-25-2007, 04:18 PM

ZED

12-25-2007, 06:26 PM

this is awful tempting..
toss in a thermistor and clip on or rig new terminals.. (or wire a different terminal harness in). Or just remanufacture it for proper shape.

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2456

Picked up one of these (http://www.onlybatterypacks.com/showitem.asp?ItemID=10458.8)
measures right.. the pictures are of a sub C but the measurements are given. Just have to put terminals and a thermistor in it.. think I'll be in business. We'll see. No biggie if not.
Chargeable with any charger capable of 7.2 volts. Being AAs and not sub C probably want to charge it with a slow charger or at a low setting. vs a 20 minute charge 4 amp charge.

I'll let you know in a week or so... I could have gone much cheaper. But this one was already all soldered up and packaged. Just need to make a small hole to insert the thermistor between the cells and solder it off. Just chose 14ga leads. Figure they'll be big enough.. I hope.

pleohacker

12-25-2007, 08:28 PM

The NiMh pack should work as you expect, I don't think it will last longer than the stock pack. The stock 2200 mah rating seems true at the high rates that Pleo uses, but a lot of the battery sites inflate their ratings by specing them at low discharge rates. I think the one you bought uses the Tenergy cells and these cells have a bad rep. See the quote from a review site.

----
>>I purchased 20 qty Tenergy 2600mAH NiMH button top AA cells a few months ago to feed all my RC transmitters.

>>After assembling the pack I discharged it on my CBAII (computerized battery analyzer) and the first discharge resulted in ~ 1570mAH capacity at a 0.6A discharge rate.

>>I then recharged the 8 cell pack at a 1A rate using a digital RC charger and then did another discharge on the CBAII. This time the resulting measured capacity was 1650mAH. The capacity is climbing but I doubt it'll will be anywhere close to 2600mAH.
----

The LiIon pack has a 4 amp limiter on the protection board and I think this would be too low for Pleo.

I've designed with Li cells for years and they can be tricky. Please be careful with LiIon packs, Even the experts don't get this right every time.
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14271878/detail.html

pleohacker

12-25-2007, 08:40 PM

This pack has more correct ratings for a Pleo, but it has the wrong shape.
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2867

This is about what I'm going to do, but mine will fit into the existing PLEO battery bay and it will have the correct charging connections for safe fast charging.

ZED

12-25-2007, 09:06 PM

The LiIon pack has a 4 amp limiter on the protection board and I think this would be too low for Pleo.

I've designed with Li cells for years and they can be tricky. Please be careful with LiIon packs, Even the experts don't get this right every time.
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14271878/detail.html

Yea.. the more i looked into Li-ion.. the more it seemed they were a little high tech for me.
I can do a days worth of nimh battery packs fairly cheaply. Kid can only keep interested for likely a little over the current pack life.

Also found 6 cell battery holders that appear that they would fit in the hole.. allowing for any type of compatible rechargeable to be used with only one reengineered holder.

Yea.. I didn't look at the ratings so much for that pack I found a website with various protection circuits. Pleo would want to draw something around 5 amps right?

SO.. we'll see.
Thanks for all your info pleohacker.

kchamster

12-25-2007, 09:48 PM

i like your signature lu bu!

ZED

12-25-2007, 11:21 PM

I have a writeup on my site about Pleo's power wires <a href="http://www.pleodreams.com">Pleo's Power System</a>

Interesting...

The pleo will run with this disconnected right? its not just the power switch harness?

If so.. that gives a lot easier way of connecting my after-market battery pack. Just need to pick up what looks to be a normal JST XH3 connector (http://www.pldaniels.com/rcshop/images/CONN-JST-XH3.jpg)
Are the wires capable of 5 amps tho?..

gallamine

12-26-2007, 04:23 PM

I second "pleohacker"s remarks about not getting much more with 2.9Ah than 2.2Ah. Battery packs are rated based on "amp-hours", or how many amps can be drawn for 1 hour.

However, the relationship isn't linear. e.g. a 1A/hour battery may last 10 hours on 0.1A, but it will not last 0.5hrs at 2 amps. Heating effects tend to limit the upper limit on the discharge of cells.

Often a cells discharge ability is rated in "C"s. A 1C battery can be discharged at a maximum of its A/H capacity (e.g. a 1C 1A/H battery shouldn't not be discharged at a rate greater than 1 amp over one hour).

This forum post may clear things up: http://forums.radiocontrolzone.com/showthread.php?t=228528

ZED

12-26-2007, 06:26 PM

yes and particularly in nimh..the C rating drops off quickly.

As to the quality of the cells.. I expect the "plain black wrapper" to be a little off. Just saving myself some time. its too bad they seem to be proven to be crud.

No matter. I'm just a tinkerer.. Not an engineer. My education lies in science but medical science. Not too much beyond some chemistry in common, but i get by. No time for a real hobby.. so I tinker.

I was also planning on picking up a 6 cell battery holder.. removing the clear plastic and connecting a jst xh3 (http://www.pldaniels.com/rcshop/images/LEAD-JST-XH3.jpg)???? connector to the available terminal in there. A 6 cell battery holder may be a hair too large.. but It likely could be made to fit..
maybe use eveready 2500mAh nimh cells.. come with a charger and all at costco for about 20 bucks.

Heck.. the kids forgot about the pleo already... I don't know if they are anxious about wasting its batteries or if its just not as fun as other toys.

But I will tinker with it till I have a solution for my own piece of mind.

I appreciate all the help.

pleoWhisperer

01-04-2008, 03:26 PM

For what it's worth, The battery packs shipped appear to be made by GP Batteries out of Hong Kong, using six of their standard AA cell model #230AAHC 2250mAh NiMH batteries. These batteries can be purchased all over the place (including UK) for under $3US each (you need six). All this is, of course, assuming you wanted to rebuild the battery pack with the *same* batteries Ugobe used. ;)

cmadmacs

01-05-2008, 01:02 AM

Thanks for the information.

ZED

01-07-2008, 06:28 PM

Well, aftermarket battery works just as expected. No longer run time (probably just a touch due to cooler running maybe?)
but no problems.. no notable difference in performance. Also popped a larger capacity battery into my tivoli radio (takes the same 6 cell) that went from 1400mah to 2700mah... it played at volume for 24 hours.
Charge time about 1 hour. but my pleo battery has been charging in about 2.5 anyway with the pleo charger. I've successfully charged the battery at 1 amp with my novak charger without overheating it. .5 amps does it in an un-noticeably longer amount of time but with little heat.

InNM

01-07-2008, 08:12 PM

Interesting reading your posts. I will rebuild my battery pack when the present cells go bad. I saw the third terminal but did not know what it was for until now. I have designed some battery chargers in the past (not for Li-ion) and a lot of switching power supplies (the NASDAQ sign in Times Square uses my supplies). retired now. Thanks for your posts.
Ron

cmadmacs

01-08-2008, 01:15 AM

Great information zed.

Razor-Blade

01-09-2008, 03:58 PM

Don't know if it's a little on the cheeky side putting this question out buuuuut....
(Worth a try)
Any of you lot who have made successful battery packs feel like helping out our lesser intelligent people and selling the packs to people?
Thought i'd ask, sure a few people are wondering (could just be me though hehe)

PleoWorldHostCami

01-09-2008, 04:00 PM

aaronbre

01-23-2008, 07:46 PM

Any plans for UGOBE to sell extra battery packs or LiPo packs?

mweed

01-23-2008, 08:59 PM

Extra batteries should be on sale from Ugobe any time now!

We're all waiting anxiously! :)

cmadmacs

01-24-2008, 02:12 PM

I know! I can't wait!

asortofdream

01-24-2008, 05:22 PM

I considered making a wall adapter for pleo because it'd be cheaper than buying a battery. For the most part though, I never got around to building it because I lost interest in pleo's limited capabilities. You'd have to compromise with having pleo next to an outlet, but it would extend his life and not really limit what he's currently able to do.

I'll let you know how/if I get around to pulling this off.

Anyway, I just regained my interest upon realizing... ta da... I'm a lonely guy, and pleo is the most satisfying life-form I have.

cmadmacs

01-25-2008, 01:05 AM

well, they make great companions.

denodan

02-01-2008, 01:07 PM

The reason you cannot buy other batteries is because like most other compaines they make custom parts which means you have to buy their products, so they make more money.

But not all is bad. By you having to use their custom battery means you will not damage Pleo. So other batteries may not work to well and harm your Pleo.

I am sure there will be third partyextra life batteries come out, and charges, but the battery gets hot in Pleo, so would be very worried if he lasts longer. When you take the battery out to recharge it, it's allready pretty hot.

denodan

02-01-2008, 01:23 PM

remember fast charges kill your battery of much faster. Using a fast charge is a bad idea, and like car batteries a fast charge is never recommended. You will really limit the life of the battery. The slower the charge the longer your battery will last. UGOBE says the packs have a life of 3 years. In a fast charger this would be at last half this.

SO NEVER USE A FAST CHARGER.

Glyph2040

02-07-2008, 05:27 PM

The best cells I could find today (2900MAH) were $5 each. An OEM cell is going to be less than $1. No surprise that better cells work better...

I could double the total run time if I built a pack with four 18600hr LiIon cells in a 2x2 config, It would need a custom charger, but would give you 4400MAH in the same size battery socket with the right voltage range. Only problem is that these cells are $24 each! These are the same cells used in laptop packs, and that is why the laptop packs cost $200 - $300.

So who wants a $100 battery pack that can run for 2 to 3 hours? It could charge in about 2 hours, but the charger for that is another $50. I do prototype design and short manufacturing runs. I started looking into Pleo to size up the market for add-ons. It looks like better battery packs are right up there. If I could get enough interest I could make a run of replacement packs with double the life of the stock pack.

Any Interest?

Hey Pleohacker!
NIce thinking! Now I see why they "skimped" on the stock battery packs... Pleo would've cost approx. $450 msrp if they had gone your route (a better one in a way) w/Lithium Ion cells.

But are you serious about building some? Have you actually done any test-runs w/some that you've custom rigged? What were the results? So are you taking $150 for the LiIon pack and charger then?? Fill me in, I'm interested!! I'm a TECH JUNKIE (as probably most of us here are in one way or another -hence why many of us bought/knew about Pleo from a long time coming. BTW, where did you 1st learn about Pleo? I remember first reading about him in a Magazine... it was either WIRED or Pop Sci... probably WIRED. But anyway, it was like back in like mid-late '06 or early '07 if at all in '07....

Anyhow, thanks for reading and the reply!
-Glyph